Saturday, November 12, 2005

Bellagio 80/160. UTG limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, CO limps, Button limps, I complete in the SB with QdJd, button checks.

Flop (7 players, 7 SB): Td 9h 6d. I bet. 1 fold. MP1 raises. 1 fold. CO calls, button calls. I three-bet. MP1 calls, CO calls all-in. Button four-bets. I cap. MP1 calls. Button calls.

Turn (3 players + 1 all-in, 9.5 BB + 3 BB side pot): (Td 9h 6d) Tc. I check. MP1 checks. Button bets. I call. MP1 calls.

River (3 players + 1 all-in, 9.5BB + 6 BB side pot): (Td 9h 6d Tc) Ts. I bet.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think reads are important here. looks like spewing to me.

4:03 PM  
Blogger eric said...

I would have included any relevant reads. A couple of my opponents were brand new so I had no reads, but also the game was playing about as straight-forward as I've seen an 80 game play. I think all necessary info is included in my admittedly sparse and mechanical post.

9:09 PM  
Blogger Stacy said...

After much thought... I really don't like it. I don't think you win the side pot often enough to make it profitable, and I have a hard time believing Q high is good in this multiway pot.

12:27 AM  
Blogger eric said...

All right, I can tell from the deafening silence that most people probably agree with anon and Stacy.

Also, the couple of emails I've received about it weren't all that positive, either. "Er, I'm not really sure I understand the hand..."

Say it! I'm a donkey!

Except I don't think I am. At least on that hand. I'm self-depreciating enough that I think I can allow myself a brief moment of pride: I think I made an excellent play.

Think about it this way. What are my two opponents' hands? Do either of them have a pair?

Let's start with MP1. He raises the flop. Fine. Then it's reraised, then four-bet and then capped. He merely calls each time. Is he calling with a 9 or a 6 there? No. A set or two pair and he's reraising that flop. And definitely if he had a set or a T he would be betting or raising that turn. There's only one hand that makes any sense, and that's a flush draw.

There's a chance he has something like Ad9d, but there are a zillion other possibilities that don't include a 9 so one has to be 90+% sure he isn't holding a pair on the river there, but A-high with a busted flush draw.

What about the button? He calls two bets cold on the flop. It's three-bet and then he four-bets. That's a super draw-heavy board, so he's not slow-playing a set or two pair there. Maaaybe a set, but definitely not two-pair. He would have been a lot more aggressive from the get-go with a two-pair or set-type hand.

The other possibility, the one that makes the most sense? He flopped the nuts, 78. I'm 80% sure of this.

So here I am first to act on a board that reads TTT96 with two opponents who I know don't have pairs. So I'm in the perfect position to represent what they have to think SOMEONE'S got, which is a pair. Yeah if MP1 has Ad9d he's calling. Yeah, if the button really had 99 or 66 he's calling. But I'm pretty darn sure neither of them have a pair.

So I can do something that I can't really do at any lower limit--I can bet. In fact, it wasn't an option. I had to bet. They can't call when someone has an obvious full house, that's just giving money away. The side pot is 6BBs, so as long as it works 1 time in 7 I break even. I think my play would work well over 50% of the time there.

And this time it did. MP1 mucked in disgust, which ended up accidentally flipping his hand over to show Ad4d. The button also mucked in disgust, intentionally face-up to show...87.

I got the side pot, and the CO showed her hand, which at first I thought was J8 for what would have been an open-ender on the flop, and I had a momentary vision of scooping the entire fucking pot with Q fucking high. But her hand turned out to be 87 also (damnit, did she switch cards on me real quick??), and so she got the side-pot.

She almost mucked, too, but only showed her hand after the other guys mucked to kind of say "look at me! I flopped the nuts and still lost!"


But I did send the table into a frenzy when I tabled my hand and said, loud and proud, "Queen high!"

MP1 got up and left in disgust, and the button was quietly steaming for quite a while.

7:35 AM  
Blogger EstonB said...

Hell E, you've come this far, might as well CR the turn...

10:32 AM  
Anonymous Evan said...

I didn't comment, because I agree: you must bet the river.

Normally I'd checkraise that turn, but there was too much action on that flop.

1:55 PM  
Blogger fairnbalncd said...

I agree with evan. As much as it hurts, you must bet the river here. Spending one bet on a large pot is a good investment. (Would you have folded to a raise on the end?) Checking it through multiway with all the action I have to believe someone is holding an Ace or King along the way. Give'em an opportunity to fold.

Being OOP on this hand sucks big.

3:04 PM  
Blogger eric said...

I think CRing the turn after that much flop action is suicide. No one is folding a straight, and there's a chance I'm up against a FH. Remember, MP1 could easily still have been going for a CR himself. Only when he again called can I be that confident of a flush draw. And once the T comes again on the river I can be more confident no one was on a TPTK or top-two type hand. And if MP1 does have the nut flush draw, he's likely not folding.

Although, hey, maybe CRing the turn is really correct. I just don't think it is, but I could be wrong.

I think this hand is one of those situations where being OOP was a blessing. I basically had first bluff. Early position bets get a lot more respect. I'm not betting into one person, I'm betting into two, plus the person all-in.

If I were the button, betting would perhaps get a crying call from the straight because the button is where people typically try to bluff from. Being the SB I think greatly increased my chances of taking the pot in this instance.

5:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree that being first to act is the only way this works, but what specific hand are you representing?

T - Don't you CR the turn in that case?

67 or 98 - Do you really put that many bets in on the flop?

An overpair - But you only completed pre-flop.

Does the typical 80/160 opponent think about anything along those lines?

5:18 PM  
Blogger eric said...

You're right, I haven't represented a pair at all. I've represented, in fact, the exact hand I ended up showing down.

Although, perhaps JJ or QQ is a possibility for me to have out of the SB having not raised PF. Or perhaps I had Kd9d or some such, or AT and I was worried about a set/straight on the turn. There are a few hands I possibily could have played that way.

But ultimately, I would never have tried that play against experts. Luckily, I wasn't against experts (or else I probably would have left long ago). I was against solid players who know how to fold.

They aren't thinking, well gee, does his play perfectly line up? No, they're thinking, "big multi-way pot, three of a kind on the board, and suddenly someone's betting! They have a FH, I don't, I should fold."

So in short I'm representing a pair where I know my one opponent--busted flush draw--can't call at all, and my other opponent most likely isn't analyzing my play that deeply.

Without a doubt, this was an extremely situation-dependent play.

6:06 PM  
Blogger eric said...

Oh yeah, to answer a couple of specific questions...

(Would you have folded to a raise on the end?)


Does the typical 80/160 opponent think about anything along those lines?

Typical player? No. But there are plenty who do. There's a lot of sharing of players between the 80 game and the bigger mix games, so there are some crazy-good players in the game at times.

6:13 PM  
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