Sunday, October 30, 2005

I'm back in town with a lot I want to write about, but I think for now I'll stick to a couple hands I played last night. One of them is even one of those rarely talked about and even more rarely seen online hands!

Since it seems to make the subsequent discussion more interesting, I'll save the results for a day or two and see what people think.

This first hand, I was new to the table and had zero reads. I came really, really, really close to folding the turn.

Paradise Poker 20/40 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Jd, Qd.

2 folds, UTG+2 raises, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9s, Kh, Th (6 players)

SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, MP2 folds, Hero raises, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+2 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls, SB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (14 BB) 3h (4 players)

SB checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero raises, CO folds, SB calls, UTG+2 3-bets, Hero calls, SB caps ($14, all-in), UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (23.70 BB) Ac (3 players)

UTG+2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 25.70 BB

To show the difference between online and live play, here's a hand I played last night at the Bellagio 80/160. I thought it was a pretty simple fold, whereas I felt the above hand warranted a call-down.

Nine-handed table. Typical game--most of the players are too loose and people cold-call waaaay too much, but everyone still has a few tricks up their sleeves postflop and they aren't total dummies by any means. MP is so tight he squeaks, although I've been playing a little LAGgish recently, and so his preflop reraising standards might have expanded from two possible hands to about four.

I'm dealt black AA UTG+2. UTG limps. I raise. One fold. MP three-bets. Button cold-calls. BB calls. UTG calls. I four-bet. MP caps. Call, call, call, I call.

Flop (25 SB, 5 players): Kc Qd 8c. BB checks, UTG checks, I check, MP checks (!!!), button bets. BB calls, UTG raises, I three-bet, MP four-bets, call, call, call, I call.

Turn (22.5 BB, 5 players): (Kc Qd 8c) 7h. BB checks, UTG checks, I check, MP bets, button calls, BB calls, UTG calls, I fold.

Fold getting 26.5 to 1? Closing the action?? Am I crazy???


Blogger d said...

The way I read hand #1, you won the 2BB side pot and left a bet on the table.

In the second hand, how can you be so certain that you are drawing dead holding the Ac? I guess there are probably 2 players on a draw and with you holding the the Ac that someone is much more likely to have JT?
I guess I would have folded too since your pot odds were only slightly better than the odds of hitting an A combined with the moderate chance that your outs are no good.
Btw, given the tightness of MP, I'm assuming that you have definitely ruled out that he holds the red As?

3:11 PM  
Anonymous eric said...

On the first hand, I don't think SB has much. perhaps a big heart? This seems like that typical online play, where a player who has been calling all the way has a tad more than the amount needed to call and they just bump it up to all-in for the fuck of it. UTG+2...could it be 99?

And on the second hand, I'm assuming you thought you were up against KK or QQ along with someone drawing with JT? That's the only way you can fold in that spot.

4:47 PM  
Blogger eric said...

I'm not commenting just yet--I'm giving others a time to think and perhaps say what they think--I just want to say for that the above comment by the "non-highlighted eric" is by a reader who shares the same name, not by me, the writer of this blog.

Hey, it confused me for a sec ("whoa, when did I reply??"), so I imagine someone else might be, too.

6:57 PM  
Anonymous Peter B said...

First hand requires a bit of analysis, so I'll come back to it later.

Tight player's check on flop and then capping it is KK. He might as well hold up a sign. Easy pass for you, terrible cap from him.


12:18 AM  
Anonymous Peter B said...

Having a little second thought on the player's check/4-bet on the flop, I recall that occasionally I have capped a pot online solely on the grounds that I expect the player behind me to cap it, so I might as well get the bet in for them, and, hopefully, slow them down a bit on the turn. I've tended to do this on something like KQ and a board of KQT. In this scenario (not yours) I suspect that TT is out there, but I am not sure. The cap by me might indicate a made straight.

That said, I still think that in your scenario the guy has KK here, mainly because his four-bet is not, of course, a cap in the Bellagio, where four raises are allowed.


Now, back to the first hand. My my. Let's assume UTG+2 has KK and that SB has lost all sense of the value of money and is throwing in his last $14 before going to bed.

Wow, you win. Since you can posit a (valid) scenario where you have the best hand, you have to call, albeit through gritted teeth.

Other scenarios are: UTG has QJ of hearts (would he have raised with this in UTG+2? I often would). Or All-in guy has hit nut flush.

Or, you are splitting it with SB while UTG+2 is on trips.

Whatever, either you fold this as soon as the heart appears on the turn, or you stick with it to the bitter end.

My guess is that UTG+2 has the KK and all-in SB has Ah Qs, giving him a flush draw and a gutshot.

UTG+2 probably should check here, but, needs must. Desperation last bet in the vague hope that he is beating SB and that you will fold the winning hand.


4:35 AM  
Blogger eric said...

My guess is that UTG+2 has the KK and all-in SB has Ah Qs, giving him a flush draw and a gutshot.

You, like me, vastly overestimated my opponents.

I'll give $5 if anyone can guess UTG+2's hand. You don't even need suits.

11:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

UTG+2 has AK

2:31 PM  
Anonymous Aaron said...

UTG+2 has K9, is wowed by 2 pair, and ignores the rest of the board.
This is why they call it "Paradise" Poker.

3:38 PM  
Blogger eric said...

Good guesses, and funny stuff, Aaron, but you guys still way overestimate this guy.

Since I'm afraid I might actually have to shell out 5 bucks, I'll now post the results.

In hand #1, I figured the SB didn't have a made flush due to his complete passivity up to the point that he was almost all-in. Because of this, I figured he most likely had the bare Ah or just couldn't let top pair go, although I was leaning heavily towards the Ah.

As it turns out he had, ahem, Kc3d. Yes, the ol' K3o, which is a hand that is simply too good to fold from the SB for a raise, dontcha know. Hey, he turned two pair!

Now UTG+2 really had me confounded. I figured him for most likely a set, but even then one would think he'd slow down to the flush, so that turn three-bet really had me worried that he had AhQh. In a live game, I might find the fold, but online where people tend towards over-aggression, I figured I should call down in case he was overplaying his set.

Or, perhaps his two pair. Or his AK. But alas, all those hands were waaaay out of his league. At showdown, he turned over--drum roll please--Ts8s, for middle pair, junk kicker.

That hand was literally my third or fourth at the table, and so I hadn't realized until then that I'd stepped right into the middle of a dream game. Every hand was like this one--six, seven people in for two or three bets, no one folding anything. I think it was mostly a couple guys like UTG+2 who had most everyone else on raging batshit tilt. Once a couple of key spots left the game settled down dramatically.

That game reminded me of what every Party 2/4 game was like back in '03. Oh, those were the days.

As for hand #2, you guys pretty much nailed it. I did have odds to draw for my set against the obvious set held by MP, but there were three other players not going anywhere which meant that, unlike the Paradise 20/40 game, they had legitimate draws. Further evidence was with the quick calls made by all the other players. Top pair type hands would have been more aggressive on the flop and been calling more painfully later. The quick-check, quick-calls told me everyone was drawing legit, and what could that mean? They don't all have flush draws. JT was out there, I was sure of it. And that meant I was drawing stone dead.

So I folded. River came the beautiful (for MP) 2h, check, check, he bet, two guys made disgusted folds after showing their cards to their neighbors, and one guy made a crying call. Okay, a donation. And MP showed his QQ for second set. I would have bet my life's savings he had KK there, but nope only QQ. Given his preflop cap and how super-squeaky tight he was, that just goes to show just how LAGgy I must have been playing.

What about my flop play? The reason I checked was that once I saw that KQx flop, I knew I was beat. There was no way MP didn't flop a set. So I checked, unsure of how I was going to play it. But then MP checked with only one guy to act behind. Button bet, call, UTG raises and so what else could I do? MP checked with only one person left to act, I couldn't imagine him doing that with a set and giving us all free cards on that draw-heavy board. That told me (ahem, made me hope at least) that he had either JJ or the other AA and was afraid that I had just hit a set--definitely a legitimate concern with AA given that preflop action.

So I did the only thing I could do and three-bet to punish the other guys who I had all beat, and hopefully force out MP's AA, which I might add, he'd likely fold if that is really what he had. But then he four-bet and my brief hope was shattered. But getting 44:1 I had odds to draw to just my runner-runner flush even if that's all I had going for me, so I had to call. But by the turn I was dead in the water and had to give it up.

FWIW, at least one guy had JT, and perhaps two, judging from the moaning/consoling going on at the other end of the table.

9:58 PM  
Anonymous Evan said...

It's funny how cheap you are, Mr. 80-160.

I have no problem with how you played either hand. I thought the AA was an easy fold. The other hand was a +EV call, I think. Most of the time you're beat, but you'll win often enough.

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